Okay Cara, in my previous message I meant to say I have some "NUMBERS" but I got busy.
So I am a freak too and I am that person who has been counting screen minutes and seconds for many of the WCTH characters since season 9 and even went back and did quite a bit of counting for seasons 6-8, because I had a lot of the same questions you did -- we complain a lot about our favorite characters not having enough screentime and I realized that in some episodes my favorite characters would only have about 4-6 minutes in a 42 minutes episdoe, which seems woefully sad. Yet with such a large ensemble cast how much screentime can one character reasonably have when that time has to be shared with over a dozen other people?
So I started counting minutes and seconds, not scenes like you did. You scene-number :D data is very interesting and very much corresponds with my numbers. I have noticed that in seasons 8 and 9, sspecially season 9, so many of the scenes were very short -- like 15-30 seconds long -- except for Elizabeth and Lucas who several 2-3 minute uninterrupted scenes over 12 episodes. Our new showrunner is spoiling us with lots of scenes that last 60-90 seconds or longer, and scenes that weave characters in and out of a single longer scene, so they can put 3-4 smaller scenes inside a big giant scene and it flows and feels so easy for the viewers.
You need to go to Instagram to see the Charts I posted -- @homesweetheartie. Go to the gallery and there is a highlights link to all the screentime posts. I think you will really enjoy it! I also have pages and pages of raw data so if you want to ask anything specific, feel free.
Interestingly, I only started counting Elizabeth's screentime for s10e12 the finale, and in that 42 minutes episode she had 22 minutes of screentime -- just over 50% of the entire episode. This season so far the lowest amount of screentime for Elizabeth was 14 minutes, and that was the most recent one in which Joseph actually had 14.5 minutes and so I would say he was the lead for that ONE episode.
You asked about Nathan and Allie's scenes --
In season SEVEN Nathan and Allie had MASSIVE amounts of screentime (Nathan 101 min, Allie 50 min) including a lot of scenes together (12 min). Nathan's screentime was descreased, 80-86 min, in s8-9, and Allie's screentime more than halved. In season 9 they only had a little over 2 minutes of time together on screen - 1 entire scene (calling him "Dad") and 2 partial scenes (one on Main St with Robert and one in the cafe with Mei.)
And interestingly, I have actually compared Nathan and Lucas' screentime over the 5.5 seasons -- and they have mostly had ALMOST equal screentiimes totals overall, with Lucas usually being about 20-30 minutes ahead of Nathan. Nathan's number has been catching up with season 11, but I haven't yet calculated exactly where they are after e8.
Okay well I just waved my freak flag really frantic -- as we do when we find someone who will appreciate our special brand of FREAK -- like I think you will, ha ha
I appreciate your insight! My biggest compliant the last few years have been WCTH's underutilization of the cast and time. Which brings me to my biggest complaint about Episode 7 - The Choir Storyline. The Choir storyline felt like a waste of time and It could have been focused on something more meaningful. Since it was two-part storyline and glaringly obvious they wouldn't actually go to the festival I felt they should not spent so much time on it. Which is why I felt it was a HUGE step back from Episode 6. Furthermore, I felt like Tom's return could have been more positive.
Pacing is something I have struggled with this season but that was only the tip of the iceberg. You went deeper by shedding light on the fact the cast is too big. I had not realized 7 people left but 14 new ones came on! That's great but also does not help with pacing or quality of the show. I have a blog post mostly written on the pacing of show but I am hesitant to share because some of my recent recaps have negative undertones.
As for creative solutions, I feel like they need to have fewer main storylines that drag out the entire season. For example, the resort and shooting storylines do not need to be 12-episodes. Mid-season wrap up would have been a lot better and left 6 episodes to explore the aftermath from the resolution of those storylines.
This is really intriguing! I hear what you're saying. Do you think it's possible the Choir idea came about to help get some time to people that weren't getting a lot-- look who was in the group. And of course they knew Hearties had responded positively to the choir idea since Minnie came. But I hear what you're saying. I wonder from the Paul interview if it was only supposed to be 1 and it snowballed. Which would also explain gaps with either Mike/Mei or Faith/Lilly for 2 episodes each before or during this. Just not enough time to work it all in. Thanks for the link-- I'll check it out. I honestly have had little time to read others blogs-- I was back teaching this year and still helping at my church. I love writing-- it's an outlet but I could listen to podcasts easier in commute. So I'm glad to be able to go straight to this. And yeah-- realizing that we had doubled-- that's crazy. That math just doesn't work out. I really do enjoy the storytelling overall. I think Alyse is on to something. Her episodes are by far my favorites for pacing etc. And I totally agree with your solutions and great point on some being finished midway so more room as main ramp and resolve near end. The Lucas and Bill/Rosie's go together. That's a lot of time since that's only going to get more. Plus we have a lot with Elizabeth/LJ/Nathan and Allie. There there's still Faith/Lilly and Mike/Mei. and 4 episodes left. WOW! I know what you mean about negative undertones. I don't want to come off as critical either but I also think for people to believe us, we need to also show where we have questions. Or concerns. I really enjoyed this conversation. Hope we can have more!
I love these conversations! I definitely think the Choir storyline was meant to be more community based which I appreciate. I felt like it could have been done differently.
I also struggled with the fact they breezed over Elizabeth’s comment “I don’t think of you in anyone’s shadow.” That deserves more time since she established in S8 her reason for NOT picking Nathan was “finding Jack in him.” I know the writers have said we will circle back to it, but it felt unfinished and sadly it wasn’t even addressed in a satisfactory way in Ep 8. I’ll be curious to see if It fits into Episodes 9-12.
I think I was floating along and just hoping for the best and trying to grateful. So I tried not to be too negative but I feel my concerns are valid, and I’m glad there are other fans concerned too. I still LOVE this season so much more than I have in previous years.
You really did your homework on this subject! Interestingly, in a recent interview Kavan Smith made a similar observation about adding more episodes, but his main reason was to shorten the gap between seasons. As a compromise, I would like them to release expanded "Director's cuts" that would restore the deleted footage and extend many of the existing scenes.
I love Kavan's and your ideas. The deleted footage would help as I'm sure there's great stuff that was shot that never makes it to us. If there was money for more episodes or a Fall and Spring season maybe with 8 to 10 each that might help. But I still think there's just so many people that something has to be done with the long storylines for so many. That really might need to be just Elizabeth and crew. Then others get smaller stories that last a full epsiode or even a couple. I'm going to add some other things responding to Heartie Thoughts :)
Okay Cara, in my previous message I meant to say I have some "NUMBERS" but I got busy.
So I am a freak too and I am that person who has been counting screen minutes and seconds for many of the WCTH characters since season 9 and even went back and did quite a bit of counting for seasons 6-8, because I had a lot of the same questions you did -- we complain a lot about our favorite characters not having enough screentime and I realized that in some episodes my favorite characters would only have about 4-6 minutes in a 42 minutes episdoe, which seems woefully sad. Yet with such a large ensemble cast how much screentime can one character reasonably have when that time has to be shared with over a dozen other people?
So I started counting minutes and seconds, not scenes like you did. You scene-number :D data is very interesting and very much corresponds with my numbers. I have noticed that in seasons 8 and 9, sspecially season 9, so many of the scenes were very short -- like 15-30 seconds long -- except for Elizabeth and Lucas who several 2-3 minute uninterrupted scenes over 12 episodes. Our new showrunner is spoiling us with lots of scenes that last 60-90 seconds or longer, and scenes that weave characters in and out of a single longer scene, so they can put 3-4 smaller scenes inside a big giant scene and it flows and feels so easy for the viewers.
You need to go to Instagram to see the Charts I posted -- @homesweetheartie. Go to the gallery and there is a highlights link to all the screentime posts. I think you will really enjoy it! I also have pages and pages of raw data so if you want to ask anything specific, feel free.
Interestingly, I only started counting Elizabeth's screentime for s10e12 the finale, and in that 42 minutes episode she had 22 minutes of screentime -- just over 50% of the entire episode. This season so far the lowest amount of screentime for Elizabeth was 14 minutes, and that was the most recent one in which Joseph actually had 14.5 minutes and so I would say he was the lead for that ONE episode.
You asked about Nathan and Allie's scenes --
In season SEVEN Nathan and Allie had MASSIVE amounts of screentime (Nathan 101 min, Allie 50 min) including a lot of scenes together (12 min). Nathan's screentime was descreased, 80-86 min, in s8-9, and Allie's screentime more than halved. In season 9 they only had a little over 2 minutes of time together on screen - 1 entire scene (calling him "Dad") and 2 partial scenes (one on Main St with Robert and one in the cafe with Mei.)
And interestingly, I have actually compared Nathan and Lucas' screentime over the 5.5 seasons -- and they have mostly had ALMOST equal screentiimes totals overall, with Lucas usually being about 20-30 minutes ahead of Nathan. Nathan's number has been catching up with season 11, but I haven't yet calculated exactly where they are after e8.
Okay well I just waved my freak flag really frantic -- as we do when we find someone who will appreciate our special brand of FREAK -- like I think you will, ha ha
Yes I have some moments for you — be back later….
I appreciate your insight! My biggest compliant the last few years have been WCTH's underutilization of the cast and time. Which brings me to my biggest complaint about Episode 7 - The Choir Storyline. The Choir storyline felt like a waste of time and It could have been focused on something more meaningful. Since it was two-part storyline and glaringly obvious they wouldn't actually go to the festival I felt they should not spent so much time on it. Which is why I felt it was a HUGE step back from Episode 6. Furthermore, I felt like Tom's return could have been more positive.
II hope this link works, but this is the section of my Episode 7 Recap where I focus on the Choir Audition and what bothered me about it. https://heartiethoughts.substack.com/i/143797206/the-chior-fesitival-audition
Pacing is something I have struggled with this season but that was only the tip of the iceberg. You went deeper by shedding light on the fact the cast is too big. I had not realized 7 people left but 14 new ones came on! That's great but also does not help with pacing or quality of the show. I have a blog post mostly written on the pacing of show but I am hesitant to share because some of my recent recaps have negative undertones.
As for creative solutions, I feel like they need to have fewer main storylines that drag out the entire season. For example, the resort and shooting storylines do not need to be 12-episodes. Mid-season wrap up would have been a lot better and left 6 episodes to explore the aftermath from the resolution of those storylines.
This is really intriguing! I hear what you're saying. Do you think it's possible the Choir idea came about to help get some time to people that weren't getting a lot-- look who was in the group. And of course they knew Hearties had responded positively to the choir idea since Minnie came. But I hear what you're saying. I wonder from the Paul interview if it was only supposed to be 1 and it snowballed. Which would also explain gaps with either Mike/Mei or Faith/Lilly for 2 episodes each before or during this. Just not enough time to work it all in. Thanks for the link-- I'll check it out. I honestly have had little time to read others blogs-- I was back teaching this year and still helping at my church. I love writing-- it's an outlet but I could listen to podcasts easier in commute. So I'm glad to be able to go straight to this. And yeah-- realizing that we had doubled-- that's crazy. That math just doesn't work out. I really do enjoy the storytelling overall. I think Alyse is on to something. Her episodes are by far my favorites for pacing etc. And I totally agree with your solutions and great point on some being finished midway so more room as main ramp and resolve near end. The Lucas and Bill/Rosie's go together. That's a lot of time since that's only going to get more. Plus we have a lot with Elizabeth/LJ/Nathan and Allie. There there's still Faith/Lilly and Mike/Mei. and 4 episodes left. WOW! I know what you mean about negative undertones. I don't want to come off as critical either but I also think for people to believe us, we need to also show where we have questions. Or concerns. I really enjoyed this conversation. Hope we can have more!
I love these conversations! I definitely think the Choir storyline was meant to be more community based which I appreciate. I felt like it could have been done differently.
I also struggled with the fact they breezed over Elizabeth’s comment “I don’t think of you in anyone’s shadow.” That deserves more time since she established in S8 her reason for NOT picking Nathan was “finding Jack in him.” I know the writers have said we will circle back to it, but it felt unfinished and sadly it wasn’t even addressed in a satisfactory way in Ep 8. I’ll be curious to see if It fits into Episodes 9-12.
I think I was floating along and just hoping for the best and trying to grateful. So I tried not to be too negative but I feel my concerns are valid, and I’m glad there are other fans concerned too. I still LOVE this season so much more than I have in previous years.
You really did your homework on this subject! Interestingly, in a recent interview Kavan Smith made a similar observation about adding more episodes, but his main reason was to shorten the gap between seasons. As a compromise, I would like them to release expanded "Director's cuts" that would restore the deleted footage and extend many of the existing scenes.
A director's cut to include all the missing scenes would be a dream :)
I love Kavan's and your ideas. The deleted footage would help as I'm sure there's great stuff that was shot that never makes it to us. If there was money for more episodes or a Fall and Spring season maybe with 8 to 10 each that might help. But I still think there's just so many people that something has to be done with the long storylines for so many. That really might need to be just Elizabeth and crew. Then others get smaller stories that last a full epsiode or even a couple. I'm going to add some other things responding to Heartie Thoughts :)
Lindsay has said publicly more than once she wants to do 24 episode seasons